Another example of this kind of 'business karma' occurred in the early 70s when General Motors bought and shut down the main public transportation system in Los Angeles. They had cynically reckoned that Southern California was the biggest potential market for automobiles.

DiCarlo: Just where are we then, in the process of discarding the old paradigms and embracing the new?

Ferguson: At a crisis point, I'd say. If we started doing everything that needs to be done-right this very moment in terms of the environment-it might already be too late. Somebody has said that if it weren't for the last minute nothing would ever get done. Maybe this is the last minute. Suddenly we're saying, "Oh my God, the rain forests!" "The ozone layer."

DiCarlo: Do you find then that these environmental crises are popping up and forcing us to rethink what's really important in life, to rethink our values and priorities?

Ferguson: The Exxon Valdez oil spill could be seen as a metaphor for our whole society. The captain had gone to his cabin to do paperwork. The third mate who was left in charge was not qualified to steer the ship in such a dangerous area. When he was asked if he could handle it he said that he could. There was no watchman on the bow of the ship and the speed of the vessel was increasing rather than decreasing as they headed for the reefs.

It seems to me that collectively we're in that same situation. Things are happening faster. Meanwhile, we are the captains who have gone off to do paperwork.

DiCarlo: As gloomy as things appear, would you not agree that they serve a useful purpose in galvanizing mankind to action, and also to a higher state of being? This idea of emergence through emergency?

Ferguson: Yes. Somebody said the other day, "You have to reach breakdown before you can break through." The chaos we're experiencing now is just a symptom that the forms that we have been operating under have outlived their usefulness. The health care system isn't producing health. The schools aren't producing educated people. Issues of extreme corruption have been coming to light world wide. Our lack of an action is already making a difference.

A challenge shows us what we can do. It's a shame that we have to wait for a life or death crisis before we wake up. But once we are awake, we find that it's actually fun. Too often we think, "Someday I'll have my act together", as if there is some kind of 'never-never' land which awaits us where everything is going to run smoothly and we won't be challenged. As we begin to see that each person has a heroic capacity, we discover that each of us has a destiny to fulfill.

DiCarlo: Are there any signs that people are getting the message?

Ferguson: The polls suggest that the public is way ahead of the leaders on most of these issues. The so-called average person is more likely in a way to hold, and I hesitate to use the word "radical"-but it is radical position.

An animal rights poll showed that about half of the people in the country embraced the position that the experts would call radically pro-animal. 65% of the people according to this week's Times magazine, believe that angels exist. 48% believe that they have a guardian angel. Either the New Age phenomenon went wild while nobody was looking, or people had been keeping their thoughts to themselves.

The animal rights people were startled at this. I'm sure the angel-rights people were startled too. The general public, through the polls, have said that they would favor higher taxes if it really helped the homeless and the money wouldn't be wasted. When Clinton proposed the health care plan, a poll afterwards showed that the majority of people supported it, even though they didn't think they would necessarily benefit. So there's more imagination and grace in the populace than there is generally acknowledged by the people who run the institutions.